Throws that qualify as "leg grabs"

This has been a topic over in the other forum, but I haven't gotten as clear of an understanding of the "leg grabs" rules as I'd like. Here's my background--I was in judo over 36 years ago and now I'm back in it again. Back then, ippons were more stringent, newaza was more prevalent than now, and throws like kuchiki taoshi, kibisu gaeshi, morote gari, sukui nage, and kata guruma were fairly common. I was especially fond of kibisu gaeshi. Are all these throws off limits now because of the leg grab rule. Is there a list of throws that fall into this category or is it up to the referee to decide during a match whether to hand out a hansoku make for an otherwise legitimate throw?

I don't want to debate the wisdom of the ban, just a good list of throws that can't be used because of the rule.

--Greg

Any throw that involves tori's hand touching below uke's obi on the INITIAL attack is banned in shiai according to the mental giants at the IJF. They are permitted in the subsequent attacks of renwaku waza and while countering a throw. Go figure?

None of the techniques you mentioned are actually banned. They just cannot be executed as a direct attack.
They all can be used as a counter or as a second stage of a combination. They can be used as a direct attack if your opponent takes a cross grip reaching over your shoulder ie opponents right hand reaching over your right shoulder and gripping your back or belt.

Beaten to the punch by ptnippon sensei

In your dojo your rules apply, never allow the IJF to dictate what you teach. The IJF to me means absolutely nothing, I have never seen one of them ON A TATAMI nor received a cent from them so to me they don't even exist.

Best wishes,

Mike

Thanks for the info and the clarification on the rules. I'll have to start thinking up some good combinations and counters with some of these throws. Our sensei teaches them, but we go by competition rules for randori. I think that's a pretty good idea in case someone forgets in the "heat of the moment" during competition. I'm with you all though, I want to learn judo, not just the techniques for shiai. I'm in this for the long haul and it's comforting to know I'm not going to get bored with it anytime soon.

GregW wrote:Thanks for the info and the clarification on the rules. I'll have to start thinking up some good combinations and counters with some of these throws. Our sensei teaches them, but we go by competition rules for randori. I think that's a pretty good idea in case someone forgets in the "heat of the moment" during competition. I'm with you all though, I want to learn judo, not just the techniques for shiai. I'm in this for the long haul and it's comforting to know I'm not going to get bored with it anytime soon.

That's an interesting view. I myself don't teach the direct leg grabs to my students anymore I'm afraid they will use them in competition and be disqualified).
But you got me thinking, what if they change the rules in the future? Won't my student have a great disadvantage in not being familiar with the aforementioned techniques?

Your thought one this, please.

Why should you limit part of judo's curriculum just because some knuckleheads at the IJF think banning some legitimate judo techniques is good for shiai. They are idiots. I am not going to let them dictate what I do or don't allow in our dojo.

We do kata guruma, morote gari, etc, in randori and even amoung certain yudansha, kani basami.

We also have competitors in our judo and they just play by the rules. However, not to teach certain throws because of IJF's silly rules is a mistake.

Ptnippon wrote:Why should you limit part of judo's curriculum just because some knuckleheads at the IJF think banning some legitimate judo techniques is good for shiai. They are idiots. I am not going to let them dictate what I do or don't allow in our dojo.

We do kata guruma, morote gari, etc, in randori and even amoung certain yudansha, kani basami.

We also have competitors in our judo and they just play by the rules. However, not to teach certain throws because of IJF's silly rules is a mistake.

Hear, hear. Agree completely. Teach and practise the full range of classical judo, and should you have a student who gets to the level of competing internationally, a whole separate type of coaching will hone what's necessary then. It's far easier to subtract waza from one's repertoire than to add them, so let's all work to keep true judo flourishing.

And interestingly, I was talking with someone recently who is connected to the IJF, who said the IJF is rethinking those rules -- or at least, is committed to regular evaluation of what the effect of its rules are. The IJF wants exciting judo, to sell tickets and TV rights. It thought these rules were the solution to that, but apparently it's not forever wedded to them. So these rules may well change one day.

Whoops -- just realized I've strayed into debating the wisdom of the ban, which was just what GregW didn't want to do... Sorry about that. So allow me to make recompense with a combination suggestion:

I've had success over the years with kouchi gari to kuchiki taoshi. From a standard right handed grip, attack uke's right foot with your right foot with kouchi-gari -- but in almost the same motion, release your left-hand grip on uke's sleeve and take uke's right foot with your left hand. Then, be really nasty, finish with an ouchi gari reap of uke's remaining support leg (his left).

When you get smooth with this, it can be very effective. Important, as with all combinations, to make the initial kouchi gari attack a real attack, though, not just a feint. You need to get uke's foot moving high enough off the ground that you can get a good grip on it.

You've probably seen this many times already; apologies if so. But it's one of my favourite "new rule defeaters"...

yabanjames wrote:

Ptnippon wrote:Why should you limit part of judo's curriculum just because some knuckleheads at the IJF think banning some legitimate judo techniques is good for shiai. They are idiots. I am not going to let them dictate what I do or don't allow in our dojo.

We do kata guruma, morote gari, etc, in randori and even amoung certain yudansha, kani basami.

We also have competitors in our judo and they just play by the rules. However, not to teach certain throws because of IJF's silly rules is a mistake.

Hear, hear. Agree completely. Teach and practise the full range of classical judo, and should you have a student who gets to the level of competing internationally, a whole separate type of coaching will hone what's necessary then. It's far easier to subtract waza from one's repertoire than to add them, so let's all work to keep true judo flourishing.

And interestingly, I was talking with someone recently who is connected to the IJF, who said the IJF is rethinking those rules -- or at least, is committed to regular evaluation of what the effect of its rules are. The IJF wants exciting judo, to sell tickets and TV rights. It thought these rules were the solution to that, but apparently it's not forever wedded to them. So these rules may well change one day.

How about when competing on a state or national level, won't they be in disadvantage for practicing techniques they cannot use? Won't they more often than not instinctively resort to those techniques in necessary situations? Or have I misunderstood and in the level and organizations your athletes compete those techniques are allowed?
Thanks for the input.

With regard to the IJF contest-related issues here, this is very much a symptom of what is largely known as the "Barcos-tenure". While Vizer is the face of the IJF, behind the screens Juan Carlos Barcos is one of the most powerful people within the IJF and has been in charge of refereeing from before Vizer was in charge. Also, the EJU Refereeing Committee is still largely led by Barcos-confidantes. The previous IJF Refereeing Committee, the so-called "Kojima-tenure" led a distinctively different course consciously trying to amend refereeing rules as little and as rarely as possible realizing that constant changing made judo contests unstable and inconsistent. The Barcos-tenure though, on the other hand, leads a conscious involvement course, continuously committed to pressing its stamp on how judo in contests is done. It's almost like the Barcos-tenure is more concerned on reserving its place in judo history books by being associated with all kinds of major changes and developments that by staying committed to what it really is referees should be doing, that is ... to stay out of a judo contest as much as possible and to let a judo match take its natural course. Referees should only get involved in a judo contest when serious and immediate risks for the players' safety pose themselves or when their is a committed intent to pervert the natural course of a fight by one of the players deliberately showing a lack of sportsmanships.

The IJF Refereeing Committee has a tendency to start from a wrong premise. Their view is that at regular times they discover something new tried out by a player, which they have difficulty debating under existing rules, not because it cannot be done, but because the understanding of the previous existing rules has been watered down because of many referees lacking serious competitive experience or because they are too young or too informed to understand the historic bases for some of the rules. For example, most penalties for head-diving today are given for something that is not head-diving at all. Another example is the whole understanding that has developed from what can be done or not from standing armlocks or chokes, and which has now evolved so far from what was historically meant by the rule that the erroneous understanding has become dominant in the judo population.

The reality is that similar to any other sports, athletes will keep coming up with new techniques, new strategies, new things imported from other sports. You do not resolve this by overregulating your own sports. Unless something forms an acute threat to the integrity of your sport, new rules are generally not necessary at all. Furthermore, judo is a combat sports (referring to judo in sports competitions), so as a contact sports and as a combat sports, it will always carry a risk for injury and be more 'dangerous' than playing snookerL If people can't accept that they should not be in judo but go fishing instead.

For me, it is simple, the rules of a judo competition should be such that they allow everything that was allowed in judo shiai as conceived under Jigoro Kano. Daki-age should be allowed, starting in newaza should be allowed, a judo match should be allowed to contain nothing but newaza the full 5 minutes long, golden score should be abolished, kani-basami allowed, ippon should be ippon, that is throwing someone full on the back with force and speed hard enough that the person would not move anymore if it were outside of the mat, and ippon should stop being awarded for someone landing on his knee and then rolls on to his back, and of course, one should get rid of the stupid yellow and blue tatami and the even more stupid blue gi, but that is so evident that it should not even be mentioned. The weight categories should also be revisited, so that the nonsense of why the new weight categories were created in the first place is eradicated. Medical interventions should be allowed again; it's a combat sports, and people need to be allowed to be patched up and continue until they give up. Most of all, referees should be taught how to stay out of contests rather than how to get involved in them. The judoka will make the fight, they don't need a referee to do that for them.

luizpavani wrote:

yabanjames wrote:

Ptnippon wrote:Why should you limit part of judo's curriculum just because some knuckleheads at the IJF think banning some legitimate judo techniques is good for shiai. They are idiots. I am not going to let them dictate what I do or don't allow in our dojo.

We do kata guruma, morote gari, etc, in randori and even amoung certain yudansha, kani basami.

We also have competitors in our judo and they just play by the rules. However, not to teach certain throws because of IJF's silly rules is a mistake.

Hear, hear. Agree completely. Teach and practise the full range of classical judo, and should you have a student who gets to the level of competing internationally, a whole separate type of coaching will hone what's necessary then. It's far easier to subtract waza from one's repertoire than to add them, so let's all work to keep true judo flourishing.

And interestingly, I was talking with someone recently who is connected to the IJF, who said the IJF is rethinking those rules -- or at least, is committed to regular evaluation of what the effect of its rules are. The IJF wants exciting judo, to sell tickets and TV rights. It thought these rules were the solution to that, but apparently it's not forever wedded to them. So these rules may well change one day.

How about when competing on a state or national level, won't they be in disadvantage for practicing techniques they cannot use? Won't they more often than not instinctively resort to those techniques in necessary situations? Or have I misunderstood and in the level and organizations your athletes compete those techniques are allowed?
Thanks for the input.

No these techniques at not allowed at any competition, even at the local level. Shiai is only a part of judo and I have not seen judoka "instinctively" use these techniques, even at the international level when this rule change was abruptly put into place.

Cichorei Kano wrote:
For me, it is simple, the rules of a judo competition should be such that they allow everything that was allowed in judo shiai as conceived under Jigoro Kano. Daki-age should be allowed, starting in newaza should be allowed, a judo match should be allowed to contain nothing but newaza the full 5 minutes long, golden score should be abolished, kani-basami allowed, ippon should be ippon, that is throwing someone full on the back with force and speed hard enough that the person would not move anymore if it were outside of the mat, and ippon should stop being awarded for someone landing on his knee and then rolls on to his back, and of course, one should get rid of the stupid yellow and blue tatami and the even more stupid blue gi, but that is so evident that it should not even be mentioned. The weight categories should also be revisited, so that the nonsense of why the new weight categories were created in the first place is eradicated. Medical interventions should be allowed again; it's a combat sports, and people need to be allowed to be patched up and continue until they give up. Most of all, referees should be taught how to stay out of contests rather than how to get involved in them. The judoka will make the fight, they don't need a referee to do that for them.

forgive me for further derailing this thread, but while I understand your aversion to every other change you mentioned, what is the beef with the blue and yellow mats? I've seen that mentioned a few times, but I just don't get it. could you please give a brief explanation of this?

genetic judoka wrote:
forgive me for further derailing this thread, but while I understand your aversion to every other change you mentioned, what is the beef with the blue and yellow mats? I've seen that mentioned a few times, but I just don't get it. could you please give a brief explanation of this?

'Brief' ... um ... OK, blue and yellow mats, especially in combination, are very 'un-wabi' and very 'un-sabi'.